SM Re-flashers go public

[tnord]

you really don't need to woory about five generations of ECUs.  i think the 94-95 and 99-00 are the only ones worth worrying about at this point.

EDIT; i'm not saying that a different map won't help at all on a  90-93 or 96/7 (why would i get a MS?), just that the biggest benefit from this, and consequently worth the CRB/ITACs time to find a way to check the maps, is on the 94/5 and 99-00.

[MBennett]

No way. Anyone who supports open timing and fuel pressure as a solution needs to be run out of SpecMiata on the end of a very pointed stick. This doesn't NOTHING to make the racing closer, less expensive or the engines more reliable. Somebody just has something to sell. We should be actively outlawing/teching anything that makes these cars run lean or faster. If you want to @#%^ around with that stuff, go to Prod. 

Anyone who anonymously supports running people out of SM for simply publically supporting a position on rules should ... should .... should .... well ... shouldn't be anonymous

Not changing the rules won't not change the prep ... like it or not, shame it or not.    

Consider the possibility that most of the timing and AFR gains can be had legally, but not near as simply, cheaply, or easily as FPR and timing ... however, nobody should feel the need to give their honest prep away just because someone else says it can't be done. 

If/when FPR and timing are legal for all, I'll happily explain more.  It should be a lively thread! 

[shenry]

AgitProp, I know where you are coming from but it just isn’t that simple.  People are already lowering fuel pressure though other means that can’t be enforced and are arguably “within factory spec”. Whether they do that by finding the ideal unmodified part or through some undetectable tweaking, the fact is that they already have it.  Ignition timing is maybe a little tougher, but “they” will assure you that there is enough variance and slop in “legal” parts to pick up a couple degrees.  That’s base timing so easily checked in the shed, but what is the range of factory spec and do we really what to police it?

More and more people are finding these tricks but the guy who really sticks to the rules or just isn’t in the loop ends up being the loser.  If you explicitly allow the adjustments then everyone can do it for extremely low cost, leveling the field and reducing compliance headaches and driver frustration.  But it’s optional, so if someone hasn’t even bothered with the dyno and is content racing wherever he is in the pack, he can continue doing so with little change. 

If it impacts parity then adjustments will need to be made, but the gains are small and won’t be much if any more than many of the front runners have now.   If we assume (and I think we can) that ECUs won’t tested on most cars at most events, adjustable fuel and timing effectively nullifies most of their benefits. That may stop the cheaters from cheating, but it will reduce their advantage. 

I’m not happy about the whole thing but it doesn’t seem logical to just look the other way, especially on ECUs, when we can largely negate them.

that was well said steve...

[Dusty Bottoms]

bump

...just sayin'

[David Dewhurst]

Way to good. From the other place.

I'm new to SM in New England and went to the various shops to get some prices and advice on what it takes to run up front. Driven Performance was my last stop of the day and it was very weird. When I got there a car with Maryland plates was running at the bottom of the driveway with the lights off. I went to the door and a larger man came out through the door dragging what I think was a wiring harness. He looked at me and said "just wait until this year". He got in a car with TN plates and drove away. oddly enough the car that had been at the bottom of the driveway drove after him with the lights still off.

The shop was orderly and clean but a man sitting next to a Miata, obviously drunk was doing something with a laptop connected to the car. He looked like some kind of hippie right out of the 60s. He waved me over, told me when he started out it was all about mixing chemicals, but now the game had transitioned to electronics and that was really his specialty. He handed me what I think was a control unit and said "tell Chip to tape a $50 to the inside cover and Collins will pass it" and passed out.

Well I don't know who Chip or Collins or the big guy from TN is so I put the control unit on the ground and left. I'm going to the shop in southern Mass. They have a cool motorhome and tow truck. they say it's all about fuel pressure, not electronics and their motorhome is great on fuel.

http://www.monarock.com/ddg_at_work.jpg



--------------------
Rex Racer
'99 Buyer
 

[IPRESS]

DDG & Grey Goose ahhhh what a pretty picture!

[Old Caesar]

Way to good. From the other place.

I'm new to SM in New England and went to the various shops to get some prices and advice on what it takes to run up front. Driven Performance was my last stop of the day and it was very weird. When I got there a car with Maryland plates was running at the bottom of the driveway with the lights off. I went to the door and a larger man came out through the door dragging what I think was a wiring harness. He looked at me and said "just wait until this year". He got in a car with TN plates and drove away. oddly enough the car that had been at the bottom of the driveway drove after him with the lights still off.

The shop was orderly and clean but a man sitting next to a Miata, obviously drunk was doing something with a laptop connected to the car. He looked like some kind of hippie right out of the 60s. He waved me over, told me when he started out it was all about mixing chemicals, but now the game had transitioned to electronics and that was really his specialty. He handed me what I think was a control unit and said "tell Chip to tape a $50 to the inside cover and Collins will pass it" and passed out.

Well I don't know who Chip or Collins or the big guy from TN is so I put the control unit on the ground and left. I'm going to the shop in southern Mass. They have a cool motorhome and tow truck. they say it's all about fuel pressure, not electronics and their motorhome is great on fuel.

http://www.monarock.com/ddg_at_work.jpg



--------------------
Rex Racer
'99 Buyer
 

I think it would be a cold day in TN before the 'larger man' would be visiting or asking the man in the picture for help!  It is snowing here though!

[MBennett]

Way to good. From the other place.

I'm new to SM in New England and went to the various shops to get some prices and advice on what it takes to run up front. Driven Performance was my last stop of the day and it was very weird. When I got there a car with Maryland plates was running at the bottom of the driveway with the lights off. I went to the door and a larger man came out through the door dragging what I think was a wiring harness. He looked at me and said "just wait until this year". He got in a car with TN plates and drove away. oddly enough the car that had been at the bottom of the driveway drove after him with the lights still off.

The shop was orderly and clean but a man sitting next to a Miata, obviously drunk was doing something with a laptop connected to the car. He looked like some kind of hippie right out of the 60s. He waved me over, told me when he started out it was all about mixing chemicals, but now the game had transitioned to electronics and that was really his specialty. He handed me what I think was a control unit and said "tell Chip to tape a $50 to the inside cover and Collins will pass it" and passed out.

Well I don't know who Chip or Collins or the big guy from TN is so I put the control unit on the ground and left. I'm going to the shop in southern Mass. They have a cool motorhome and tow truck. they say it's all about fuel pressure, not electronics and their motorhome is great on fuel.

http://www.monarock.com/ddg_at_work.jpg



--------------------
Rex Racer
'99 Buyer
 

So ... I still haven't heard any good reason why we shouldn't simply legalize a $100 AFPR and allow adjustable timing on all cars, and now all the "magic" reduces to 2HP (and not even across the whole curve). 

$100 from Summit Racing all day long ... 30-100 psi ...
http://www.malloryperformance.com/pdf/4305M.pdf

If you LET there be an exploitable advantage, people will take advantage of it ... you will never be able to enforce enough, make a penalty strong enough, or infiltrate the political machine enough.  (This is usually where someone jumps of Logical Fallacy Bridge and says I am trying to make the class into Formula 1, EP, etc.). 

Remember how much "fun" it was when AFMs weren't adjustable and only the Gods could get -3 degrees camber and get through Tech? 

I don't know what is worse about the class ... people pushing the prep, or people with an inexhaustible supply of energy to complain without ever proposing a solution.

[David de Regt]

Mark: How do we allow "adjustable timing" on the 1.6?  All we can do is change the base timing and pseudo-tune the curve with the AFM, but not really.  And, tuning by adjusting two different variables, one that adjusts both fuel and timing (AFM) and one that just adjusts fuel is going to take hours and hours of dyno time to find the right match.

AFPR: 100$
"adjusted" AFM: 250$
Dyno time: 1000$
How much you're still short of people with an illegal map: 2HP
Crying yourself softly to sleep because you still can't get your f***ing fuel curve to work out with the timing you want: Priceless

Or...

MegasquirtPnP: 700$
Dyno time: 300$
Having a car fully drivable all the way through the RPM range: Priceless

[David de Regt]

Hey, I've got an idea.  Allow open ECU on the 1.6s, and open timing and AFPR on the later cars.  That should make everyone happy, right?

[MBennett]

Mark: How do we allow "adjustable timing" on the 1.6?  All we can do is change the base timing and pseudo-tune the curve with the AFM, but not really.  And, tuning by adjusting two different variables, one that adjusts both fuel and timing (AFM) and one that just adjusts fuel is going to take hours and hours of dyno time to find the right match.

AFPR: 100$
"adjusted" AFM: 250$
Dyno time: 1000$
How much you're still short of people with an illegal map: 2HP
Crying yourself softly to sleep because you still can't get your f***ing fuel curve to work out with the timing you want: Priceless

Or...

MegasquirtPnP: 700$
Dyno time: 300$
Having a car fully drivable all the way through the RPM range: Priceless

Today there are 6HP differences to worry about in some cars you are competing against ... if you are within 2HP, then you have reached diminishing returns and it is time to move on to something else.

If you use FP to bump your curve in the 1.6 you can get the door farther open (no RP) while still having the wiper putting you in a more stable part of the timing map.  If you've tried tuning one, you know the wiper is ridiculously sensitive and if you rely too much on the clockspring you will start to turn your AFM into a "restrictor plate" at the expense of trying to lean it out. 

The car doesn't need much of a "map" to run from 5500-7300 all day ... you just want a base number that puts you at a reliable full advance number.  The 99 changes about a degree from 5500-7000 at WOT ... I watch it on the track all the time, it never changes.

To open the ECU for 2HP is crazy (I think) and far less likely political sell (I think) than the drug I'm pushing.

I can find 2HP and hopefully outdrive 2HP (if I am a better driver, of course) ... 2HP ain't the problem!

[MBennett]

Hey, I've got an idea.  Allow open ECU on the 1.6s, and open timing and AFPR on the later cars.  That should make everyone happy, right?

Don't tell me you are on the Slattery program, where the only rule change you would ever approve would be one that favors the 1.6?   

Again, what you are missing is that 99s are running most of the A/F and timing gains TODAY ... and not necessarily using the methods being so popularly discussed ... so, actually, the AFPR is a relative gain for most or all LEGAL 1.6s ...

[David de Regt]

No, the 1.6 is hosed at runoffs as long as it stays where it is.  That's fine with me, I'm a regional/local-only national racer, I'm just concerned with what I have here.  Furthermore, we have almost entirely 1.6s around here, so I'm not concerned with parity with 99s, nor do I know the technical details of how to either legally or grey area/illegally soup up a 99.

What I do know is that I've spent a ton of money on a dyno, and will continue to have to spend a ton of money on a dyno, because we have these godforsaken AFMs to tinker with until the end of time.  Unlike a lot of other SM people (probably not including you, I'm guessing,) I've tuned EMS-based cars, and _holy god_ is it easy.  It's incredibly easy to debug any problems, on the race track or off, it's stupidly easy to make power, and it wasn't made on 20 year old technology.

I realize that there's no political capital around the idea of open EMS, but I think that's just because this sport is full of old people who are still scared by something that doesn't have a bowl.   I would so utterly happily open up the can of worms entailed in open EMS's.  It would save me so much trouble tuning a car, as well as actually give the 1.6 some power coming out of low speed corners.  In the northwest we have a sub-50mph corner on both tracks where we're either raping our transmissions on a rev limit 3-2 then hardass 2-3 back-to-back shift series or buried in 3rd in the middle of the dead zone of a "tuned" 1.6's power curve as we watch the 1.8s pull away.

All I really know is that it would save _me_ both headache and money.  And it would save a good portion of the remotely serious racers up here the same thing.  You guys that run runoffs?  I have no idea.  I understand that that has to be taken into account, but wow do I just not care that much.

I have this same problem with the local autocross groups.  Do you set rules around the 20 people at the top of the sport, or around the 1000's of people that support the sport?  I don't really have a good answer for that.  I just know what's best for me and many of those around me.  I think trying to "save money" for the 20 guys who already have >40 grand into their cars is something of both a silly and a moot point.  Why not just do it right the first time?

[Eric Barbaric]

Isn't tinkering with the ECUs and fuel pressure illegal in our class?

Just sayin'.

Let's grow some enforcement balls and throw paper at regional events.

Let's put the cat back in the bag.

The vast majority of the class does not want Open ECUs or fuel pressure regulators. We want simple, similar cars that are relatively low cost and that reward driving talent by a greater measure than wallet size. What happens on the pointy end of the field DOES matter, because, like geese, they set the direction for those that will follow. It is time to change the pointy end of the field and get this class back on course. Take away their expensive toys and cheats.

Opening those things up just makes things more expensive ($1000 I don't have to spend now) and screws up the parity that everyone has worked so hard to achieve. Shame on you cheaters for hosing up a good thing!

[MBennett]

No, the 1.6 is hosed at runoffs as long as it stays where it is.  That's fine with me, I'm a regional/local-only national racer, I'm just concerned with what I have here.  Furthermore, we have almost entirely 1.6s around here, so I'm not concerned with parity with 99s, nor do I know the technical details of how to either legally or grey area/illegally soup up a 99.

What I do know is that I've spent a ton of money on a dyno, and will continue to have to spend a ton of money on a dyno, because we have these godforsaken AFMs to tinker with until the end of time.  Unlike a lot of other SM people (probably not including you, I'm guessing,) I've tuned EMS-based cars, and _holy god_ is it easy.  It's incredibly easy to debug any problems, on the race track or off, it's stupidly easy to make power, and it wasn't made on 20 year old technology.

I realize that there's no political capital around the idea of open EMS, but I think that's just because this sport is full of old people who are still scared by something that doesn't have a bowl.   I would so utterly happily open up the can of worms entailed in open EMS's.  It would save me so much trouble tuning a car, as well as actually give the 1.6 some power coming out of low speed corners.  In the northwest we have a sub-50mph corner on both tracks where we're either raping our transmissions on a rev limit 3-2 then hardass 2-3 back-to-back shift series or buried in 3rd in the middle of the dead zone of a "tuned" 1.6's power curve as we watch the 1.8s pull away.

All I really know is that it would save _me_ both headache and money.  And it would save a good portion of the remotely serious racers up here the same thing.  You guys that run runoffs?  I have no idea.  I understand that that has to be taken into account, but wow do I just not care that much.

I have this same problem with the local autocross groups.  Do you set rules around the 20 people at the top of the sport, or around the 1000's of people that support the sport?  I don't really have a good answer for that.  I just know what's best for me and many of those around me.  I think trying to "save money" for the 20 guys who already have >40 grand into their cars is something of both a silly and a moot point.  Why not just do it right the first time?

OK, fine.  ASSUME for a second that what I'm proposing helps level the playing field for 80% of the class, week in, week out, everywhere, for all time, for <$150. 

Because if you can't vote for that, I would still understand, but there is no point in further discussing it.  Not to beat a dead horse, but "just like camber".

[MBennett]

Isn't tinkering with the ECUs and fuel pressure illegal in our class?

Just sayin'.

Let's grow some enforcement balls and throw paper at regional events.

Let's put the cat back in the bag.

The vast majority of the class does not want Open ECUs or fuel pressure regulators. We want simple, similar cars that are relatively low cost and that reward driving talent by a greater measure than wallet size. What happens on the pointy end of the field DOES matter, because, like geese, they set the direction for those that will follow. It is time to change the pointy end of the field and get this class back on course. Take away their expensive toys and cheats.

Opening those things up just makes things more expensive ($1000 I don't have to spend now) and screws up the parity that everyone has worked so hard to achieve. Shame on you cheaters for hosing up a good thing!

What I think you are missing is there are already $1000 ($2000?  $3000?) LEGAL ways to prep in 4-8HP ... not even counting unenforceable ILLEGAL ways.

Starting to remind me of ClutchGate here ... because the only time I'm this vocal and adamant is RIGHT BEFORE I spend the $2000 when I'd really rather spend $139 even if it means a lot of other people will instantly have it too. 

[David de Regt]

OK, fine.  ASSUME for a second that what I'm proposing helps level the playing field for 80% of the class, week in, week out, everywhere, for all time, for <$150. 

Because if you can't vote for that, I would still understand, but there is no point in further discussing it.  Not to beat a dead horse, but "just like camber".

You're completely missing my point.  Buying the _parts_ is <150$.  To get the most out of it will be _hours and hours_ of dyno tuning.  That's not 150$.  Any time you add another knob to turn that requires combinatorially turning it with another knob, you (by definition) exponentially increase the time necessary to screw with it.  Right now we already have base timing and AFM.  You want to add base fuel pressure too?  The poor O2 sensor at the local dyno is already crying.

[MBennett]

OK, fine.  ASSUME for a second that what I'm proposing helps level the playing field for 80% of the class, week in, week out, everywhere, for all time, for <$150. 

Because if you can't vote for that, I would still understand, but there is no point in further discussing it.  Not to beat a dead horse, but "just like camber".

You're completely missing my point.  Buying the _parts_ is <150$.  To get the most out of it will be _hours and hours_ of dyno tuning.  That's not 150$.  Any time you add another knob to turn that requires combinatorially turning it with another knob, you (by definition) exponentially increase the time necessary to screw with it.  Right now we already have base timing and AFM.  You want to add base fuel pressure too?  The poor O2 sensor at the local dyno is already crying.

I'm sorry, as a guy with about 500 runs each on the '99 and the 1.6, that is simply not how it works.

By having a simple INDEPENDENT FINE knob (fuel pressure) to tune, "by definition" you make the job much quicker and easier.   It is the DEPENDENT COARSE "knob" of the AFM wiper (pinchbolt only, not counting the other 3 adjustments) that is the royal, time-consuming, pain in the ass.  That "knob" is way too coarse, you can't measure the adjustment, and you better have steady hands and a dental pick, and even then you might be in for an hour or more.  You try moving it as little as possible and you go from 0.5 too rich to 0.5 too lean.

In contrast, anyone can turn a bolt and read a gauge.  Curve up, curve down, RECORD THE PRESSURE, you are done.  You also missed the point of how this allows the AFM to run in a more stable and more powerful place.

Also, you say I am "missing your point", but consider this:  You pull your car into Backstreet Performance.  You do 10 pulls.  Erik sees your AFR is wrong like all the other untuned cars, and he jacks the bolt 4 psi (or whatever he knows will work).  One or more iterations and you are done.  I've seen Erik add 4-6HP to a 1.6 for about $150.  He'll tell anyone that asks that most cars run best at 15 degrees of timing.  I expect you would see the same thing happen with fuel pressure. 

And .... you still didn't answer my question

[m red]

[quote author=David de Regt link=topic=1313.msg11258#msg11258 date=1266278037

Or...

MegasquirtPnP: 700$
Dyno time: 300$
Having a car fully drivable all the way through the RPM range: Priceless

[/quote]
If you think you can tune a mega squirt or any other stand alone for 300 in dyno time, you must have a buddy that owns the dyno. You will also need something other than a dynojet to do it properly.

Bennett's point is quite valid, and the least out of pocket expense to all if it were to be applied.
Common guys, use some logic here....even if it is Bennett's 
Ed

[MBennett]

[quote author=David de Regt link=topic=1313.msg11258#msg11258 date=1266278037

Or...

MegasquirtPnP: 700$
Dyno time: 300$
Having a car fully drivable all the way through the RPM range: Priceless

If you think you can tune a mega squirt or any other stand alone for 300 in dyno time, you must have a buddy that owns the dyno. You will also need something other than a dynojet to do it properly.

Bennett's point is quite valid, and the least out of pocket expense to all if it were to be applied.
Common guys, use some logic here....even if it is Bennett's 
Ed
[/quote]

Aren't you the guy that was in a business partnership with a guy that could SMELL timing advance?   

[m red]

You have gotten that drunken story out of context....he was never that good.  It was a tech at a Mazda dealership that said that he could smell the timing was off on an RX7, after 2 days of trying to make it run right

Mark,
I do agree completely and my experience also coincides with yours. Some lucky vender could knock out timing wheels for 30 or 40 bucks a peice and you could self mutilate your own fuel reg for zero, and get 95 to 98 percent of a reflash. I dont see the 1.6 gaining anything at all, if properly tuned to start with.

cheers
Ed

[David de Regt]

If your "question" was re: the Slattery program, then no, as I said, I don't really care about the other year cars terribly, as there aren't (weren't? new year...) really any in our region.

I mean, in the end, who knows, you could be right, maybe it does make things "easier" for people who have done the 1.6-tuning game a million times..?  But, for those of us who have "only" spent 1000-1500$ at the dyno, we're still starting from ground zero, and I'm not going to know enough to look at my AF curve and go "oh, that obviously needs 3 clicks on the AFM to flatten it out, then tick it up 0.5 points with 2.5 psi on the AFPR".  Now, you could tell me "send it to a pro tuner", but then I'm shipping my car to someone and we're back to the 1000$ game again.  An open ECU on an N/A car with a timing and fuel map can be tuned by any (self-respecting) dyno on the planet within 2 hours.  Maybe your friend Erik rocks and can really speed things up with an AFPR.  I can't vouch for that, but I know that _I_ will be slower with it.

[David de Regt]

If you think you can tune a mega squirt or any other stand alone for 300 in dyno time, you must have a buddy that owns the dyno. You will also need something other than a dynojet to do it properly.

Bennett's point is quite valid, and the least out of pocket expense to all if it were to be applied.
Common guys, use some logic here....even if it is Bennett's 
Ed

If you can't tune the important regions of an NA car with an 8x8 or 12x12 map on a load control dyno in 2 hours then you don't deserve to run a dyno.   Also you can do fuel tuning on the street.  You spend half an hour fuel tuning on the street and getting it close enough, then you go to the dyno and hone in your tuning.  I've only done this on a few cars and I could still bang it out in 2-3 hours myself.

[m red]

If you think you can tune a mega squirt or any other stand alone for 300 in dyno time, you must have a buddy that owns the dyno. You will also need something other than a dynojet to do it properly.

Bennett's point is quite valid, and the least out of pocket expense to all if it were to be applied.
Common guys, use some logic here....even if it is Bennett's 
Ed

If you can't tune the important regions of an NA car with an 8x8 or 12x12 map on a load control dyno in 2 hours then you don't deserve to run a dyno.   Also you can do fuel tuning on the street.  You spend half an hour fuel tuning on the street and getting it close enough, then you go to the dyno and hone in your tuning.  I've only done this on a few cars and I could still bang it out in 2-3 hours myself.

May I ask how many stand alone ecu's you have installed and tuned?
Not wanting to start a pissing match, just looking for your logic here.

Ed

[Old Caesar]

The arguement is moot... We will never see open ecus in sm. No way, no how.
 
If anyone believes Bennett has only 500 runs on that 1.6 I have some beach front roperty to sell you here in TN

[m red]

The arguement is moot... We will never see open ecus in sm. No way, no how.
 
If anyone believes Bennett has only 500 runs on that 1.6 I have some beach front roperty to sell you here in TN

I am opposed to open ucu in SM and hope the SMAC and CRB are also.
The cost will be huge, just ask any average prod car owner, not the budget guy, but a real fully developed prod car, how much was spent on engine management system and tuning.
I have nothing against anyone that can install and tune a mega squirt, but how many SM racers can, and how many more will get a high quality system and tune to degree that cant be done with mega squirt, or how many will try and get frustrated.
I could benefit from allowing open ecu but it is truly not good for the class.
Please dont open the gate 
Oh, Bennett was talkin in one day Jim 

[David de Regt]

May I ask how many stand alone ecu's you have installed and tuned?
Not wanting to start a pissing match, just looking for your logic here.

Ed

Like I said, I've only done a few.  I've done my own car completely a couple different times (Nemesis both times, different engine builds), helped with other friend's cars several times (some Nemesis, some MS), and written a fuel tuning program for the Nemesis that has helped many others.  My point is simply that I've only done it a couple times, and I'm still confident about how ridiculously easy it is to do.  Granted, I have a bit more of a background in the subject than most, but the process itself is highly procedural and easy.  And, more importantly, with an open ecu, it's pretty easy to distribute tunes that get you 90% of the way there that just require slight tweaking.

I really do realize that open ECU will probably never happen.  But, I think ignoring the question outright is foolish.  I also think bringing up the subject of prod classes is a bit of a red herring -- there's a difference between an engine that you're going to change for a million different reasons in a million different ways (cams, manifolds, compression ratio, porting shape, forced induction, etc.) and parts bin matching looking for tiny changes on a prod car.  A megasquirt will truly get you 98% of the way there on a Miata.  Hell, setting the timing to not move from 40 degrees and fixed injector pulse widths from 5k and up would really get us 95% of the way there.   I'm absolutely positive that some schmucks would end up with an AEM or beyond, because sure, they're more configurable and looks better on paper, but they'll have 123.8hp and i'll have 123.5 and will have spent 1000$, and i'm okay with that.

We have 2 months before we can really race up here in the rainy PNW, might as well talk about something interesting in the middle.

[Dusty Bottoms]

I really do realize that open ECU will probably never happen.  But, I think ignoring the question outright is foolish. 

No disrespect intended, but if you know it will never happen then what is foolish is wasting time pondering the question.

[TJKearney]

Hell, setting the timing to not move from 40 degrees and fixed injector pulse widths from 5k and up would really get us 95% of the way there.

Get us where?!  This class has gone off the deep end and I'm curious when the silent majority will just throw up their hands and punt...

[dynotronics1]

You have gotten that drunken story out of context....he was never that good.  It was a tech at a Mazda dealership that said that he could smell the timing was off on an RX7, after 2 days of trying to make it run right

Mark,
I do agree completely and my experience also coincides with yours. Some lucky vender could knock out timing wheels for 30 or 40 bucks a peice and you could self mutilate your own fuel reg for zero, and get 95 to 98 percent of a reflash. I dont see the 1.6 gaining anything at all, if properly tuned to start with.

cheers
Ed

Ed, if you think that you can get within 2-5% of where we are with the reflash, you are mistaken. What all of you do not understand is that the reflashes you have seen to date have been based on tuning for the STREET. In other words we have not taken into account the restictor, the open exhaust, not even the fact that the cars in question are race cars.